Ep: 022 - What Would Beverly Do? "Tuvix" - Featuring Jay

[00:00:00] I think I'm saying that we struggle all our lives to answer it. But it's the struggle that is important. That's what helps us to define our place in the universe. This is Beverly, Dr. Beverly, Dr. Beverly Crusher. Honest. Forceful. Trusting. Brilliant. Strong. Adventurous. And this is Crusher Convo.

[00:00:30] All right. So as Jay said, we're going to be talking about Voyagers Tuvix and my What Would Beverly Do segment. So real quick, I'm just going to do the synopsis. If anyone rarely hasn't seen Voyager yet, but after a transporter malfunction, Tuvix and

[00:00:50] Nelix are merged into a single beam in the search for a way to restore them to their original forms, a moral dilemma is faced as the new being does not want to be terminated.

[00:01:01] So Jay, real quick, I'm curious about how do you rate this episode in Voyager terms? Do you think it's like top 10 best or its middle of the road? As a new fan of Star Trek, I feel like I don't really have a good say in it because

[00:01:16] I'm still going through Voyager, but I know you being a huge fan, you have more of a better idea of where this might land in Voyager best list. Well, I think Voyager is one of the series that I think the really good episodes are

[00:01:36] maybe a fewer and farther between. But I think that when Voyager hits a homerun, they do a really good job on that show. I don't think Tuvix would make the top 10, but I think it would get up there close.

[00:01:54] I watched it when I was a kid when it aired and I found being older now, I think the episode hits a little different seeing the way relationships with people can shift and change so fast.

[00:02:19] I think you can relate to the episode a little more when you're older than when you're 13, 12. Maybe when the episode aired, 12. Right, middle school age. When you're that age, it's just that I want my characters back, so kill this guy. That's true.

[00:02:41] I think that's a really good point because as kids, you're looking at it as a, well, I don't know who this guy is, so just get rid of him and we'll go on to back to my favorites.

[00:02:52] But as an adult, you're like, oh, this is a tough decision. You kind of look it through Janeway's eyes of how she was going to be handling it. Yeah. I did watch the episode literally like an hour before we started and my mom just so happened

[00:03:11] to pop in to help me give Mr. Grimble Shanks. He's doing well if anyone cares, but he was getting this antibiotic. She was helping me out and she was watching it just like the ending part and I was telling

[00:03:23] her about it and she was all like, well, no, it's murder. Unfortunately, they lost those two other ones and he's now a bean and he has a right. She got really into it. So I was like, so you don't agree with Janeway?

[00:03:35] She was like, no, he had rights. She shouldn't have done that. Listen, Star Trek, regardless of the series, does a really good job of raising those moral questions and I think that this episode definitely does not fall short.

[00:03:50] We've all seen the Janeway was right or Janeway was wrong. Hashtags and stuff, right? But I think this episode is a really good job of putting everybody's morals under a good microscope and making us take a really hard look at it. Right.

[00:04:09] And I think too, even when I first saw it, because I just started getting into Voyager not too long ago, but when I first saw it, I was like, oh, that's a tough one. And honestly, I still don't know if Janeway was right or wrong.

[00:04:24] I'm kind of leaning towards right because of the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. But still it's like, oh, that, I don't know. I'm still on the fence. Are you on the she was right or wrong category? I can see it from both perspectives.

[00:04:47] I don't want to get too far ahead in the conversation because we'll probably break some scenes down and stuff. But I don't think it's as simple as yes or no. I think there's more layers to it. I think so, yeah. I think that's my problem too.

[00:05:07] There's just too many gray areas in there to be all like she was right. She was wrong. Yes or no, which one was better? Now I did do a poll. I had split it off on threads and Twitter and very interesting.

[00:05:26] So there was 27 votes on threads and 24 votes on Twitter. And as I tallied up the percentages, 51%. And the question was, would have Beverly agreed with Janeway's decision to eliminate to Vix and get back. Nalix and to Bach 51% said yes and 49% said no. So it's smack in the middle.

[00:05:55] It's not so simple. It's not so simple. 26 votes voted for yes and 25 said no. So yeah, it was really just right in there. And even a couple of people, like I said, I was on threads. One who is doctor's crusher on threads, she says, I think she wouldn't.

[00:06:14] She's saying Beverly wouldn't agree. She says I would have a great philosophical discussion with Janeway about it. She says ultimately decision would be out of her hands unless she can come up with a way to clone to Vix and then separate one of the clones.

[00:06:26] I don't think there was any other option. So I think Beverly wouldn't like it but would accept Jenway's decision in the end.

[00:06:32] And then Trombone tall boy from threads had said that the most beneficial solution for all parties would be initially to make a transporter clone of to Vix and then separate the original back to to Bach and Nalix.

[00:06:46] Again, there was always I think people's ideas about how it should have been handled. But you know even back. I'll go ahead.

[00:06:55] I was just gonna say that raises the moral question of now the clone is its own living being and now you want to separate that one so you're creating a second to Vix and then still killing another one so killing the clone.

[00:07:09] Yeah, I think the same to it would be it would be two different to Vix's now. That's true. That is true. Maybe this one would be Nevoq, which was the original.

[00:07:21] Did you like to fix or did you like me Vox and said to Vix has a better ring to it for sure. A better ring to it.

[00:07:28] Mr. to Vix I mean, and I found it funny how in the show was always Mr. to Vox or Mr. Nealix and they both. So still Mr. Right. I thought that was a lot of that was a little clever.

[00:07:40] I mean my mom actually made a point about that even when she decided to separate the two. She's like, but what if it didn't work out what if there was still a little bit of each and I was all like that's.

[00:07:52] That's the whole discussion right like what if it didn't even work out and to Vix was killed and it still created. You know these two separate beats so there's just so much so much to unpack here.

[00:08:04] But I guess we'll just go ahead and get started on the whole. What would they really do.

[00:08:10] I found it funny in the beginning of the episode where you know it's showing to Vix and Nealix kind of at heads you know he's being annoyed by Nealix being all happy and peppy collecting these flowers.

[00:08:23] And then I think that was a good way to start off the episode because you're seeing them a little bit at odds and then all of a sudden they're they're trapped right they're trapped in this one being.

[00:08:39] You know and I think even as at first when they're realizing they can't separate the two like the doctors are like I don't know what to do about this and cast looks upset and J.

[00:08:50] Ways concerned you know and everyone's all like oh no what to do and even the being of to Vix is like.

[00:08:56] Okay, what do I do now right because he's kind of just at first he feels trapped in like I have both consciousness but even though I have my own conscious I still have the memories of both and I feel like.

[00:09:08] I feel like sometimes Nealix sometimes to Vox I think that would be very confusing for for what happened.

[00:09:16] Well he's, he's, you know there's only there's only an hour to tell the story but you know the this poor guy is now he's not just struggling to figure out his place in the crew, but his place in the universe right like yeah.

[00:09:32] He's literally just come into existence as a completely new being as a new person right. So it's, I can only imagine how overwhelming all that would be.

[00:09:46] Yeah, not just for him to but you know for Cass and the crew and you know all his friends and found family that he's that he's living with right now.

[00:09:58] And I think they did a good way of introducing that because you could see it was really everybody they're showing all their expressions, all their concerns, you know they really focus of course on Cass and Janeway.

[00:10:13] Because they, you know that was her to Vox was a good friend of hers and then cast had the relationship with Nealix which we're not going to get into.

[00:10:21] But the thing is just with everyone else they've just kind of like started to get to know Nealix really like Nealix he had been on the ship for almost two years now and they already knew who to Vox was and so yeah I'm sure it was kind of

[00:10:40] interesting for them to adjust. Right, how are we going to adjust to this.

[00:10:47] Yeah, I mean they figured it out. You know as it was continuing even Cass was starting to get to know this to Vix right and get to understand him and like him in a way, not romantically but just you know like him as a human being.

[00:11:05] Yeah, she was given him a chance. She was given him a chance they all were you know, even for what was it was it Tom and. Oh my gosh okay. Harry. Oh, yeah. Oh no was it when when they were playing pool. Well yeah Chico and Tom.

[00:11:27] Oh, yeah. Chico and Tom. Yeah, like they were playing pool with you know with the guy you know like they were hanging out and they were just kind of accepting like this is how it's going to be.

[00:11:39] But do you find it interesting though for Janeway because I can't really remember if she really wanted the doctor to keep looking or the doctor was doing on himself or they were just accepting that this is how it was going to be.

[00:11:56] I couldn't tell if Janeway was encouraging the doctor to search for a solution or if the doctor just did it on his own. I know he reached out to Harry about the situation where he had figured it out.

[00:12:11] Yeah, no I think it was probably just standing orders to do whatever there was like there was a conversation that it could take a long time at one point in the episode it could take a long time even years I think they even mentioned. Right.

[00:12:26] How to how to reverse it, but yeah I think the doctor was just probably spending some spare time looking at it.

[00:12:37] Just do what he was programmed to do. Now, to add Beverly into this conversation. As this were to happen. Do you think she would have continued to look for a way to separate the two, or just accept to VIX automatically.

[00:12:59] I have no idea what to do at this point. We're just going to have to accept them as a being.

[00:13:07] So I think being part of the Voyager crew from the onset and having to go through the trauma of being thrown into the Delta Quadrant, losing half the crew.

[00:13:22] Both, you know both Machi and Starfleet side. Because I don't think we can just take Beverly right from the enterprise throw her on Voyager and see what she would do because I don't say the context would be there. That's true.

[00:13:39] But as as I'm kind of thinking about this I keep coming back to how she handled the hue situation. Right. She was very okay is humanity and and protecting this person and not using them as a weapon of it, you know, different situation.

[00:14:01] But we're still dealing with a being that they were going to send off to to die kill all these other Borg which had genocide. Which had already killed, you know, thousands and thousands of Starfleet officers as well. So not to mention colonists and whatnot.

[00:14:21] So, but you know, and she was still against that and then in this situation it's just two lives. Right.

[00:14:30] But I think when you look at it from a morality, like a crew morale perspective right with everything that they've been through is losing two of the, you know, the biggest two of the, you know, big faces on the on the ship. Right.

[00:14:50] What's best for the crew and keeping them motivated to get home. I don't know it's it's it's a lot. It's a lot to take it. It's a lot to take it.

[00:15:00] Yeah, it's interesting that you mentioned about Hugh because at first she was just concerned about saving his life right because they were just like, Oh leave him to die when and she's like no no no I could help him. But as soon as Hugh started becoming an individual.

[00:15:18] And she was she was very much. Well he has rights we can't just erase his memory we can't just undo what we just did. He has the right to choose whether he goes back or stays right.

[00:15:32] So I think, I think at first she would definitely probably look into separating the two just because that's what they were looking there. They were looking at as a transporter accident right even Jane way had mentioned that.

[00:15:46] But as time went on, she might have really gotten to know to Vix and seeing him as an individual and not even think twice about.

[00:15:57] What I think even like you don't see the doctor have any real interaction with with to Vix right but the minute to Vix is like, I don't want to do this I don't want to die. Then he just says no I can't in good conscience.

[00:16:11] Go through with this because this person is is telling they're not providing consent for this. They're not for yeah right so yeah. So it became murder at the end. A little bit. How do you feel though with the cast part of the story.

[00:16:34] I think you know it is as problematic as Kess is as a character and yeah, just with Neelix. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:16:47] I think that Jennifer Leon actually performed some pretty good scenes in this episode because you know that you know it's closer to the end of the episode where she is it to Jane way she goes and she's like crying and she's like I can't do this I've tried and I thought that was really well.

[00:17:07] Really well done. But I think, I think that you could see the the hurt with cast. And I think they were trying to portray.

[00:17:20] You know it's not too Vix's fault that this has happened so I think you saw Kess really trying to internalize it as much as possible up until the end where she she kind of had a bit of a breakdown.

[00:17:35] But I you know I'm watching this and I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of somebody that you know this, this person that you're in love with just had this happened and they don't really exist anymore. Basically yeah right.

[00:17:52] And that would, I think it would be really hard, really hard to go through and especially you know this Tuvix is a walking reminder of what she's lost what she's lost. Yeah.

[00:18:04] That's true and you know what also be what would I I saw very hard was the fact that to Vix because he carried. Nelix his love for her. He kept talking to her as if he was Nelix but it wasn't.

[00:18:20] Yeah, he was he was pushing the boundaries a lot. He did back at one point. But he was definitely and I get it it'd be confusing for him and he's got to learn, learn those boundaries but right you know from Kess' perspective obviously it's extremely difficult. Mm hmm.

[00:18:43] And I think too because you mentioned at the end where she had that breakdown.

[00:18:48] What kind of broke the camel's back was because Tuvix went to her like the one person that would understand and tell Janeway that you know she shouldn't do this is you right and he's like begging her to like tell her to keep me alive.

[00:19:03] But she couldn't in good conscience do that she even said to Janeway I like Tuvix like she grew to care for him as a friend she's all like but I miss Nelix, you know I want the bag.

[00:19:16] And that was a way like for for instance if there was you know a way to bring my husband back from the dead probably going to do it, you know and you're you're thinking selfishly in that moment because you love someone and you know you want to bring him back.

[00:19:34] You know I think going to Kess was was Tuvix is like downfall. Yeah, once he did that that was because I think it was that plea from Kess, which really changed Janeway's.

[00:19:49] Janeway's decision. Yeah, yeah, because she even had mentioned when the doctor had figured out how to separate the two.

[00:19:59] And she's like, when did he become an individual instead of a transporter accident. Like when did we shift because it had been weeks late they said weeks later which could have been at least like couple months right two to three months.

[00:20:14] And they started to get used to the fact. This is how it's going to be but then all of a sudden oh there's this chance to bring back to Valk and Nelix and then their feelings for Tuvix kind of shifted.

[00:20:27] I think that's where Beverly would be all like whoa whoa wait a second.

[00:20:31] You know, but what about what about his feelings like what about his thoughts like, I think they were so wrapped up in their own feelings about their loss, especially for Janeway because she knew to Valk for a very long time. I wasn't thinking about Tuvix as much.

[00:20:52] It was part of the dilemma, but ultimately it wasn't enough to sway Janeway that direction. Right. Well that was, to me that was I think that you know Janeway gets a lot of slack for for this episode.

[00:21:11] For me, I think that the honestly the let's say worst reaction was how cold Tom and Chacote were on the bridge when Tuvix is giving his big. I don't want to die.

[00:21:26] Speech and they just shut him out it's like literally four minutes ago you were playing pool in France and now you're here talking about murdering me right like yeah.

[00:21:39] That's where I said, you know at the beginning what I said that, you know as you get older and you start seeing how people's relationships with each other can change sometimes on a dime.

[00:21:50] I think that that does a good job of capturing that we're all of a sudden, you know, you're really close to somebody and then you wake up one morning and you're not right.

[00:22:00] It happens it happens to all of us it's life but that that scene to me was was really powerful and you know what and and. Janeway is now, you know you see all the Tuvix memes with you know she'll kill them murder or whatever. Right.

[00:22:15] You see it on her face that this is not she doesn't want to be in this position to have to make this decision.

[00:22:21] You saw as she entered the bridge, like she looked totally distraught and she had to put on the captain's mask of I have a duty right I have a job to do and I'm not going to let my emotions get in the way.

[00:22:35] And she held that all the way up until after she left sick bay that walk down the corridor you see the mask drop and you see the completely I mean all grew.

[00:22:44] Oh, absolutely it was really my mom right fit your face acting yeah yeah I told my mom that I was like look at it though because she was like why would she do that I was like but it still affected her I probably still have to this day.

[00:23:00] Yeah, now if voyager was structured better as a series it would have been nice to see her deal with that but you know voyager hit the reset button at the end of every episode.

[00:23:10] That is true yeah I mean they were getting a little bit better with TNG as they were doing with Picard's trauma with the Borg and stuff but yeah it didn't not too much happened on Voyager and that aspect.

[00:23:22] Yeah, I mean it got a little better once once seven was introduced and you were dealing with her growth as a person right because the other characters you don't see a whole lot of character growth with them but with seven there's.

[00:23:35] You know there was a lot of potential yeah like it's a data journey right that towards humanity and and stuff right so right but also at that point.

[00:23:46] They're seeing the success of DSA S9 and the Dominion war in that serialized story I think they were trying to work it a little bit in there but.

[00:23:53] Yeah, no I understand that I mean you know the little crossover of how everything overlapped they were trying to just continue the story but in different sections which I think was a good idea.

[00:24:06] But in this instance it would be nice if like if there was a story down the road. I can't think of a storyline off the top of my head that she was reminded of to Vicks right and just have that little hint that it was still bothering her.

[00:24:24] Or even as the doctor became more in tune with his emotions and being more an individual. We should have got a revenge of to Vicks episode where the accident happened again and but now he's out to murder. He's going after the revenge of the two Vicks.

[00:24:47] That judgment day. Oh my gosh that would have been hilarious now the actor that played to Vicks is it Tom right. He nailed it. He was brilliant as just a perfect meld of to Vock and Neelix like just put playing those two.

[00:25:11] It was fantastic because you can see him in the very beginning when he first became to Vicks you see him shift as Neelix and to Vock right.

[00:25:22] And as time went on you're kind of seeing him more of a like he's logical but with a little sense of humor right almost kind of data with an emotion chip right it's like they kind of he did so well of meshing those two characters together.

[00:25:37] And I would suggest that during the Hollywood food collation benefit.

[00:25:47] The sci fi sisters had done an interview had talked about to Vicks and they had Tom right on there and talked about you know how he portrayed the character how you know what she right what she wrong those things it's a really good interview and I totally suggest everyone watching it.

[00:26:06] But you know, I had mentioned this earlier to you and since we're kind of on the Janeway thing here. Gender roles. Okay, do you think that fans would have had such a split of she was wrong she was right.

[00:26:28] If it was a male captain. So yeah, I think you and I talked about this on on a Twitter space when I was driving home from St. Louis trying to keep you away. Almost 12 hour drive. Yes we did have we did have a conversation.

[00:26:46] And I think I, I personally believe that it would have been a lot more forgiving had it been. I mean, I think Cisco poisoned an entire planet and people go.

[00:27:10] I mean, when you have to factor, like I said that crew morale thing the trauma of being home, you know, all of them having lost all their families and now they're talking about two more people that they love that they've been spending at this point what, at least a year and

[00:27:31] with right and they've been through, you know, everything that a Starship crew in the Delta quadrant would go through so they're right family this is these are brothers and sisters right so yeah.

[00:27:42] I think that you have to keep looking at it that perspective and not just a, they're just two characters on a TV show you have to look at the bigger picture but I do I do think the narrative around if, if Jane Lee was right or wrong, probably wouldn't exist.

[00:28:00] And I think that was, if it was Cisco. No, that I agree. And I only say that just because as I had always heard the negativity that was always towards Star Trek discovery, especially against Michael Burnham and you know, Senequa's character and all that stuff.

[00:28:22] I didn't watch discovery yet because I was trying to go in order and that didn't work so I've been flip flopping different Star Tracks but I had just seen the premiere of season five and I thought it was great.

[00:28:33] I loved it. I was like, I don't know why people hate this show. Listen, I don't want to spoil anything with the season.

[00:28:42] I love this whole we're going on a quest storyline it doesn't feel like a big destroy the unit. I mean, it can but it doesn't feel right, you know, big threat blowing up. You know, species 10c trying to mine the galaxy and blow up planets.

[00:29:01] Yeah, potential down the line but it's more the quest and and the stuff we're getting great character moments this season I don't want to go too much on the tangent because I'm really enjoying the season but

[00:29:10] No, I've heard great things about I didn't continue I was actually going to go back and like watch. Was it Janal I think was episode three or something like that. But I thought these characters well includes that episode.

[00:29:25] I heard he does a great job. Yeah, and I've heard a lot of negativity towards Michaels, you know the character because you know oh she showed too much of emotion. You know, captain shouldn't do that right, which is funny because in Janeway situation.

[00:29:44] She had emotion she put on the captain's mask did her job and then she, you know, let out those emotions once she got away from her crew. But honestly we've seen those emotions from all the milk captains right like it's some shape or form.

[00:30:02] So I didn't so when I was talking about it with this I was all like if this was a male captain, no one would have batten an eye, you know but the fact that she was female I think they caused more of a how dare she, you know,

[00:30:17] it's so annoying. It's so annoying, but it here's the thing I mean and I've heard even the same things sometimes with Beverly, you know, oh female CMO she's no bones.

[00:30:30] No she's not bones and she's not trying to be you know, she's her own person and she did a damn good job.

[00:30:35] So that's just how I feel about it but I think one thing too if Janeway was starting to question whether she should separate like she was doing with Chacote. Let's take Chacote out of that and put Beverly in that situation.

[00:30:51] I'm curious about how your thoughts would be if what kind of, I think was a Dr. Screscher from threads have put like a philosophical discussion right of how to proceed with this now some people had said well they would clone to VIX and keep the clone and then separate the original.

[00:31:12] Right. Not sure if that really causes a solution and all of it, but I'm wondering, you know, I could see Beverly sitting down with her and giving her the pros and cons of the whole situation.

[00:31:30] Yeah, and you know what the other thing just real quick to mention I think too that that's important is that the the moral side of the discussion on the show suffers a bit because the doctors can find to sick base still.

[00:31:49] Right so he's not he's not out doing one on one with people like Beverly would be hunting people down and trying to talk them out of, you know, speak up for this person and whatever it was kind of.

[00:32:01] They got to come to him and if they're not coming to him. He's calling them on the emergency medical hologram channel. Yeah, yeah.

[00:32:10] Now that for a second take Beverly out of the equation and put the doctor in because later on the doctor becomes more of an individual right.

[00:32:16] Yeah, how do you think his reaction would have changed. Do you think it would have changed if he would have gotten to know to VIX outside of sick Bay.

[00:32:30] I still I still think he would have. He would have reacted the same way I just think he would have had a bigger impact on the crew into him because he stepped away at the end and said I can't do this right.

[00:32:44] And I think it's, I think that was a good moment to see that he's got those ethical. It's not just sub routines but it's he had ethics as well right. Yeah.

[00:32:56] But I think I think that had he been able to walk around and talk to everybody I think he would have probably swayed some people because there was really no one fighting for two VIX the entire episode.

[00:33:08] No, just two VIX just to VIX which is also frustrating because we've all been in those situations where we're trying to advocate for ourselves and nobody's listening and you feel like you're shouting out shouting into the void right which is like,

[00:33:22] I mean, I think it was good that they had that last that scene on the bridge because that it's such a big space. Right. And he felt so alone standing in the middle of it with everybody just not even responding to him.

[00:33:36] I loved when he said, and I'm going to totally botch this but I remember he said something of that he felt sorry for everyone that was allowing this because they were good people.

[00:33:51] And even though he knew they were going to murder him basically he still saw them as good people.

[00:34:00] Yeah. And I really thought that Tom or well Harry wasn't in there he was in sick bay but even Chacote like kind of being all like, I mean I think they did facial expressions but to me it wasn't enough to really cause a like, they're hurting with this decision but they're going to be listening to the captain.

[00:34:20] But I really liked that line, because he just he still cared for them, even though they're about to do destroy him right.

[00:34:35] But I think in Beverly's case she, she would have been there probably advocating for him. He should probably would have been the only one standing up and like Dr. Crusher had mentioned. But it would have been out of her hands.

[00:34:53] Yeah, it was not it was not going to be her decision, you know what that. And I think she would have been there with it.

[00:35:02] And even in that case I would have wonder if you know, it was out of her hands. She didn't do it she had the captain do it like just like the doctor did how that would have affected Beverly. After the fact, right. Yeah.

[00:35:19] Thinking maybe I should have done something or I should have stopped them or something, you know, I don't know. I feel like Beverly always had those her moral compass is very, is very up there is very high, which is why her scene and was it Dominion and Picard where she's all like, I think of losing my compass.

[00:35:40] That's a big deal. You know, that's a very big deal for Beverly Crusher. She's all like, let's go kill this person because I'm sick and tired or chasing and trying to kill her son. You know, she had a good reason.

[00:35:54] But that's a big deal for this character because that just means she went through so much her moral compass was was dissipating right now.

[00:36:03] Now, I did. It's so funny because I guess I asked for this over a year ago and I didn't realize it but Chris from Shelf Nerds who does micro checks. I had asked him to do a TNG version of two vicks. Okay.

[00:36:24] And so and he likes to do his little one shot stories of scenes that we don't get to see or our own, you know, thoughts of like this of what would Beverly do in the situation.

[00:36:37] And I thought what he did was actually very, very clever. So I'm going to read this real fast. Have you read this yet? Not this way. I know he's done a few a few. I did the one where he did.

[00:36:55] It was like a follow up interview with Nielikson and Tuvok from with Starfleet. Oh, their thoughts on the situation where it was it was well. It was well. He does a really good job.

[00:37:09] So in this sense, I'm just going to read the story as I would read, you know, a fanfic. So he says Picard walks from his bedroom onto the bridge and up the engineering station. Mr. Jorley Picard says quietly Jorley turns from the console. Yes, Captain.

[00:37:27] Will you accompany me to sick Bay Picard ask and Jorley's eyes widen. I think sir that everyone should know what we're we're about to do. Jorley announces to the bridge warf data and other bridge crew look back at him.

[00:37:42] Jorley approaches warf warf my safety is being threatened as chief of security. Are you going to let any stops Jorley pauses noticing the Klingons resolve in warf's eyes. No, you wouldn't disobey the captain would you Jorley says he then moves down to the bridge to data you data.

[00:38:02] My I mean Jorley's best friend Jorley desperately says are you going to let this happen. I admit that I find my ethical program in conflict with my desire to resume my friendship with Jorley data states Jorley pounds his chest.

[00:38:17] I am Jorley and more. I did not require more data says Jorley whips around to Troy counselor surely you can can sense my terror my desperation to live.

[00:38:31] Troy's eyes well her brow and lip twist with heartbreak. Yes, I can. Then how can you Jorley asked before being cut off by Riker. That's enough. Jorley turns around searching the eyes of the crew. Picard glares on from the back turbo lift with the calm detachment.

[00:38:48] I'm just a kid. Jorley cries will you murder a child. Troy folds into Riker's chest. Mr. Jorley Picard commands.

[00:38:58] Now I will stop for a second for some reason I didn't catch the kid part and when they were saying Jorley I thought he was I thought he did Jorley and Barclay,

[00:39:06] which I thought would have been interesting but Barclay wasn't a very important not saying he wasn't important but it would have been like Barclay or whatever.

[00:39:16] But he says Jorley's mouth hangs open then closes stiffly. He joins Picard in the turbo lift to seek out new life. Jorley says the turbo lift doors shut.

[00:39:26] Jorley and Picard enter sick bay. Beverly and Ogawa stand by the center bio bed doctor Picard says, Mom, Jorley shouts out you won't let him. Beverly grips the cushion of the bio bed is steady herself as tears well her eyes. My son's name is Wesley.

[00:39:44] But John Luke, I cannot do this Beverly says Picard searches her eyes. Very well doctor. He extends his hand to her Beverly. She cautiously presses a hyperspray into his palm. His other hand brubs at her arm firmly. He nods she nods as her lip quivers.

[00:40:04] Picard turns to Jorley. Mr. Jorley please sit down. He mentions for a bio bed. Jorley stares at Beverly walks over and sits on top of it.

[00:40:13] He then looks away from Beverly. Alyssa curls her arm around Beverly's back. Picard lucks eyes with Jorley and presses the hyperspray in his neck. She must have her child back. Picard whispers to him. Picard turns and approaches the medical console he puts commands.

[00:40:27] Jorley dissolves within a beam and Wesley and Jorley appear. Mom, Wesley calls confused. Oh Wesley Beverly says embracing him in a tight hug. Alyssa begins scanning Jorley with the tricorder.

[00:40:40] Captain, but Jorley asks the last thing I remember is beaming back from Mr. LeForge Picard says we have been tested time and time again on our voyages through the unknown but not like this.

[00:40:51] I'm a man who always believed that I would never trade one life for another while in command of a starship. He approaches the door if you'll excuse me.

[00:41:00] I must consider just who Picard pauses. He pulls a smile upon his face. It's good to have you both back. He leaves promptly the others watching silence as the door shut.

[00:41:11] So I thought it was brilliant that Chris used Wesley in this part because as much as she wanted her son back, he was putting a she's like but I cannot do this as a doctor separate the two but she allowed Picard to do it because she wanted her son back so I felt that was an interesting twist in that sense.

[00:41:35] But even as I had said earlier if there was some way to bring like my husband back from the dead, I was going to do it. Especially if my daughter was but then again I'm not a doctor. I'm being selfish. I'm like I want my kid back right.

[00:41:50] I can't really you know say I would not trade my child's life over this this being but I liked Chris's twist on on that aspect because he still put her on there. When did he when did he write that for you.

[00:42:09] I think he wrote that let me double check real fast. I wanted to say it was like a year ago. April 12 2023. So April 12 2023 so yeah just at the end of season three.

[00:42:23] Okay, I was gonna say because like I feel like Picard era Beverly Crusher be like where's the button to hit to separate. That's true. Her moral compass is up the window. Because she's been through some shit right so a little bit. A little bit.

[00:42:42] Yeah, but this Beverly hadn't been through that shit yet so she was all like I don't I don't know I feel like her her ethical dilemma would be I want my son back but I can't like physically murder this person who's begging me to say life.

[00:43:00] There's I mean that's great. That was that was great. Yeah. I mean that was a great take on it.

[00:43:07] I mean but her stakes were higher than just with a knee licks right her stakes in this were the same as like cases right or even Jane right because Jane Wayne to Vock where you know they're they were besties so yeah you know to for for the doctor to have the skin in the game like that I think

[00:43:27] certainly creates a whole different layer of things to consider right. Of what would Beverly do. Perfect timing. Murdering the hell out of what's his name Jordan Lee Lee. George George Lee. George Lee.

[00:43:45] Yeah, that's why I thought for at first he had done Barkley and I was all like well people have been like but they would want Jordy back right. Why can we separate them but just get Jordy back. Barkley could stay in the transporter but you know he's fine.

[00:44:02] I'll stay with those creatures. If this had happened after the event where where Barkley becomes part of the computer and takes over the ship and stuff. Just go go yeah just name them into space bring Jordy back there we go.

[00:44:18] Pretty much we don't we don't know what happens. I love Jordy. I love Barkley is a great character. I wish we saw more of him after first contact because his scene was Zephyrn Cochran was great. But we never saw him again. Voyager Voyager Voyager. Yeah, yeah.

[00:44:39] He was big on getting them back. He was a great character. He was a great character. Voyager Voyager yeah. Yeah, brain. He was big on getting them home. I don't know how we both forgot that we're only talking. He was very big on getting him home.

[00:44:57] Yeah, that was the whole it was his whole thing. Good job. Good job Barkley. Yeah, so sorry that were one to throw you out of an airlock but. How memorable his character can be. He's kind of like a spider. That was terrifying.

[00:45:14] I was terrified when I was a kid. I wish we got to get what Gates wanted to do. Do you know what she wanted to do? You remember this? This sounds familiar.

[00:45:27] So he in the episode he just pops up right on the glass and scares the crap out of you know Sloth Picard and. But no, originally she actually wanted to have him dangling down from the warp court coming down like this. I was like, that was so cool.

[00:45:43] There was budget constraints and stuff right? Well an earthquake happened and so they were kind of pressed for time. You know Northridge just had to ruin ruin everything but no. I always got like Spider-Man Barkley. That would have been cool. That would have been so cool.

[00:46:01] Who would have kissed him upside down though? That's going a whole other direction. Not Deanna that's for sure. Nope, no I mean she was a lizard though maybe she would try to eat him. Maybe.

[00:46:17] She was some kind of amphibian or something she would probably try to eat him. Warp is going after her and she's going after Barkley. No we're totally going off to that was funny though. Next micro track is gonna be that. Chris if you're watching we want Spider-Man Barkley.

[00:46:32] We need to know who's kissing in the rain. Who's going to be doing the upside down famous kiss? No but I think overall in this aspect with Beverly I think she would as you mentioned she definitely would have fought for Tuvix.

[00:46:49] But ultimately it would have been a good thing. I think it would have bothered her in a sense after the fact. You know as it sounds like she could have stopped Janeway it wasn't like it would be.

[00:47:00] No she only I mean unless you want to commit mutiny right there's not much. Just because of an like she only had you know. The authority to remove him from command if he was mentally or physically incapable of performing their duty. Right.

[00:47:18] Just because she doesn't agree with something she can't do. She can't do very much. I mean we saw it in the first place. I think it's like she's a very good person. I think she's a very good person. I think she's a very good person.

[00:47:31] I think she's a very good person. I mean she's a very good person. Just because she doesn't agree with something she can't. It's not much she can do. She can't do very much.

[00:47:42] I mean we saw it in TNG where you know her and Picard did butt heads over the Prime Directive and the do no harm so I think in this aspect it just would have been the same thing.

[00:47:56] She would say her piece and she would let her know this is how I feel and I think she would have had Picard's outcome with you or his decision been different. Do you think that she would have done what the doctor did and just stepped aside

[00:48:12] and went I can't do it somebody else needs to do it or do you think she would just follow orders and do what she was told since we're talking about these dilemmas I think it's a similar similar. It is a similar.

[00:48:24] I think she well because I mean originally that's what she was doing. She was following orders helping Jordy even though she didn't like it. Yeah she was just speaking out. She was just speaking out of like I'm helping you but I don't have to like it.

[00:48:39] She was just like I don't have to agree with you but I'm just doing what I'm told. There will be nasty words in my personal log that's pretty much now the difference was though this was before Hugh really was an individual right.

[00:48:53] That's what changed it up a little bit later even for Jordy because she was pressing on like let's call him this and you know they he created Hugh and all that stuff and that's when she's like oh well he's an individual.

[00:49:05] If she would have probably noticed that he was more of an individual than just a board piece of the puzzle right. She might have been a little bit more apprehensive at that point and been like I'm stopping. I can't do this.

[00:49:22] You they can continue and do it right. It wasn't I think she might have had more reservations but by this point in the episode of course everyone started to have reservations so she had more support.

[00:49:36] In the sense and in the very beginning though she originally did it so she was kind of like you fix where no one was listening and was just doing it anyways.

[00:49:45] So but you know because of her apprehension you know it ended up tipping in her favor she got what she wanted. Do you think there was another solution for the two big situation besides cloning besides the typical.

[00:50:03] Well I mean like look the cloning the cloning ideas outside the box for sure I'm not a fan just because of what I said earlier you're now creating another being which is also self aware and an individual. And then you're killing that one anyways so right.

[00:50:18] I don't know I don't I don't know this is an episode with I mean every every track he's aware of this episode every track he's thought about this episode and it doesn't matter how hard I think about it I can't.

[00:50:35] I can't come up with a different solution it's it's hard you know but even not even just the solution but I mean it was literally split down the middle of my poll of what she read you know what she have agreed or what she had not agreed.

[00:50:49] In the sense of was Jane Ray right or wrong you know and that you can you combine the two polls where they're when you have them separate is there more of a lead for one. Yes, so on threads.

[00:51:06] 44% has said yes Beverly would have agreed in the 56 and said no. So it's Twitter people want to murder the hell out of tuba. It was 58% yes she would agree and then 42 had said no so yeah it was again.

[00:51:20] Twitter is dark Twitter is dark Twitter has the moment they murdered the bird. Not been the same you know.

[00:51:29] But no it again it was a split even with threads it was like yes she would know she wouldn't back and forth so I mean even to this day and no matter who it was it was a split.

[00:51:45] And then who I had talked to after I had seen tuba for the first time. I was getting multiple different responses to it. Oh, Jamie was right.

[00:51:54] But she did this but she should have done this you know and it was like I was almost like okay guys it's just an episode but because people still get heated even 30 plus years later of this is how impactful this episode was right.

[00:52:07] And our track is very good about bringing up these moral dilemmas and then in this situation we still don't have like a right or wrong answer which I think that was the point. But.

[00:52:19] Yeah 30 years later and people are still still talking about it you mentioned to Vix and everyone starts everybody off with it.

[00:52:26] Oh yeah, I think even even people that haven't seen Voyager I think you knew of to Vix long before doing a watch of Voyager right so everybody knows the. The dilemma but the dilemma.

[00:52:40] Yeah it's it's like I said either get the yes the no or you get people that are just like I don't know. I'm in the yeah.

[00:52:49] I'm that I don't know my my mama was dead set on the like how dare she she was very upset to Vix had rights she was just going really on that on that bandwagon but that I mean.

[00:53:04] But Jane we even mentioned well what about two boxes rights what about Neelix I need to speak for them I'm their voice you know and I was all like oh man whoever wrote this I got to see who did write this.

[00:53:16] Because this is this absolute in sense of the teleplay was by Kenneth filler.

[00:53:20] The story was by Andrew Shepherd price and Mark Gaber man and it was directed by Cliff Boyle who we've seen a bunch of times in TNG so kudos to all them because it was definitely a roller coaster. A roller coaster ride for sure.

[00:53:41] Like I said earlier Voyager their great episodes aren't aren't as as many as as some of the other series and I'm not I'm not trying to diss Voyager I'm a Voyager fan love Voyager I watched it a few times.

[00:53:58] But I think that that to Vix for sure is probably top tier Star Trek storytelling right oh yeah that's what Star Trek does is is makes you uncomfortable. Makes you look at these things under the microscope and start these debates right.

[00:54:18] Yeah yeah yeah where it's where it shines.

[00:54:21] Right and if we could still have a conversation even after all these years and they did they did something good right I mean we had mentioned about what Cisco had done right or even Bacardi with you know I Borg and even even measure of a man.

[00:54:39] Right like those are those conversations of rights and you know who was wrong who was right and all that stuff so yeah I mean that's probably why it became such a big Star Trek fan because it was well for one the fandom drama is totally different than Star Wars.

[00:54:59] I still love my Star Wars but man just either enjoy it or don't enjoy it like I can't.

[00:55:05] Yeah yeah I have I have I'm mutuals with with somebody that's big in the in the Star Wars fan are you probably seen me interact with him a few times Cody if if you ever watch this.

[00:55:19] I'm like hello but he's he's he's stepped away sometimes from the Star Wars just because you have to ridiculous yeah it gets a little it gets a little much yeah I mean I think that was kind of my thing too so with Star Trek I'm like I'm headed this direction.

[00:55:36] But of course the the ideas of Star Trek were totally different from Star Wars Star Wars is just very depressing it's just like wars domination let's destroy a planet and kill millions of people and not bad and I.

[00:55:51] You know here at least like I said more dilemma discussions you know better hope for a better future like that's that's important. I think with with with Star Wars it's it's more.

[00:56:06] Yeah there's aliens but at the end of the day it's really humanity doing it to itself versus right.

[00:56:12] You know the Borg or the Romulans of the Klingons you know yeah things that we can picture as bad because they don't look like us they don't sound like a yeah yeah no it's very very true.

[00:56:26] Which I think is why Darth Vader ended up in that so that you could picture him as a villain because he was just you know in 1979 if he was just a regular guy in a black cape.

[00:56:40] Probably won't believe it as much right yeah right I mean now as as I mean now that I'm thinking about it seeing Hayden Christensen out of suit as Darth Vader would be cool too. No I mean fiction. Oh I'm sure yeah.

[00:57:03] But no I think to with in this. Doubling back with Beverly I think also as Chris had mentioned if there was different versions of it like if I had to deal with Wesley or even Jack or even Picard.

[00:57:19] You know what if Picard was merged would she be able to make that decision. Yeah this I think this was a very good episode on the what would never really do segment. I'm really trying to look into different Star Trek episodes that really impacted people.

[00:57:39] I had asked a while back for people to tell me their favorite funny episode you know controversial just all those different things and I'm just going to kind of name a few here so it was like is there.

[00:57:59] Is there is there no truth and no beauty is there truth and no beauty that's the one that has Diana Mulder in it the Cisco Eddington arc in the pale moonlight trials and tribulations Dominion war which I know the enterprise was part of that but we didn't see it which kind of sex

[00:58:19] Surraids from strange new worlds.

[00:58:22] Those old scientists you know there was just a bunch of where people were like do it that's a that's a very good DS DS nine episode because Beverly was such a very important character to start track in my opinion that she had the best of what Star Trek.

[00:58:39] Is right she she understood that whole she had that hope for a better future she had those moral dilemmas. And she always always always put others before herself. Right so I think those were.

[00:58:56] She definitely represents Star Trek in the best way possible which is why I do this because I love Beverly Crusher so. As we wrap up do you have any last things you want to say Jay about anything that you're planning on doing where they could find you Twitter.

[00:59:16] You've added me in all these tweets so everybody I think everybody knows where to find me right. I don't know I don't know if there's anything we missed just some great acting in this this episode.

[00:59:30] Yeah I think we've covered everything like I said that the one the one really that to me that was the most chilling was was to go to and Paris's reaction during his plea for help on the bridge and they just you know we were just going to do something about it.

[00:59:43] Yeah we're just shut down. Yeah we're not even yeah suede like they just look like they were so cold right so they were they were I was a little surprised by the reaction.

[00:59:55] Yeah yeah maybe maybe they weren't as much as chicote did say I'm I'm a little surprised by the reaction. Yeah yeah maybe they weren't as much as chicote did say I'm I'm among those friends of Tuvix maybe in reality or more for Tom.

[01:00:17] They were just close they were they were just yeah they weren't as close.

[01:00:22] Yeah I think Kess was giving you know Tuvix more of the benefit of the doubt than they probably were like they were just like well we have to accept it instead of actually accepting it right.

[01:00:37] Yeah but you know it was also season two and they have their own arc though Chacotes didn't really have one. I feel like it was just kind of the same the whole way but Tom grew Tom did Tom did a good job.

[01:00:54] You know what's funny is that when I went to actually rewatch this episode I forgot it was so early in the series.

[01:01:00] I forgot it was I was I was looking I think season three at the end of season three I was looking forward and into season four and I'm like no because Kess was there so yeah it was it was early on it was probably one of their I think their first really solid right episodes right.

[01:01:22] Yeah I mean obviously look we're still talking about it and we're still talking about it yeah we're talking about it between different Star Trek shows and Merchant.

[01:01:30] Merchant together look at us but yeah when I was looking for it I knew it was in season two but I thought it was a little bit more in the beginning so I was the opposite and I realized it was during the end of season two almost season three and I was like oh wow okay it was a really good end to the season.

[01:01:47] You know wanting people to watch and giving out that kind of type of story but well I mean threads doesn't think it was such a good ending but. I know it says back and forth right and I think murder until the end of time. Murder Twitter.

[01:02:05] Murder Twitter yeah exactly I know I thought that was funny like yeah Beverly would have been fine with it like they were just like it's fine.

[01:02:16] I was like I don't think so but anyway well I thank you J for joining me in talking about Voyager I appreciate you very very much you've been awesome love hanging out with you on on Twitter.

[01:02:31] Yes any time talking about Star Trek so yeah I like I said I like to do more of this stuff and not sure what I'm going to do next but I'll definitely post it on my Instagram page and hopefully you guys are enjoying my my videos that I've been posting.

[01:02:45] Those have been lots of fun it's my therapy I just love creating this is how it is but yeah until next time guys thanks for watching and you know until next time so bye bye.